Hallo fellow researchers,
I was wondering if someone can look at the huwelijksbijlagens for the following marriage record:
Huwelijksakte Wonseradeel, 1817
Man : Hendrik Wybes van der Schel, oud 26 jaar
Ouders: Wybe Hendriks en Tiettje Doedes
Vrouw : Trijntje Johannes Stellingwerff, oud 24 jaar
Ouders: Johannes Cornelis en Baukjen Bartles
Datum : 1 augustus 1817, akte nr. 43
In particular I am looking for the death date/akte for Wybe Hendriks, father of Hendrik Wybes van der Schel. I am almost sure he died before 1811. It states in the marriage akte that Hendrik had supplied his father's death akte and his own military akte (loting).
Also, it appears that the mother of Hendrik Wybes van der Schel was the one who took the surname of "van der Schel" in 1811-12 but I cannot find this record in the Familienamen 1811 to be sure of this. When Tiettje/Tietje died on 19 June 1842 in Arum, gem. Wonseradeel, she has the surname of "van der Schel".
I cannot find any baptisms for the children of Tietje en Wybe. They had the following children that I know of: Hendrik, Gerrit, Doede, en Lijsbeth. Lijsbeth was born about 1800. I have information about the children that I have listed including marriages, deaths (Doede en Lijsbeth died ongehuwd), etc.
The question also comes up about who are the parents of Wybe Hendriks. I have found one possibility:
Wonseradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1755
Dopeling: Wijbe
Gedoopt op 19 januari 1755 in Arum
Zoon van Hendrick Wibes en Akke Hettes
Wybe and Tietje married in Sexbierum:
Barradeel, huwelijken 1783
Vermelding: Bevestiging huwelijk op 12 januari 1783 in Sexbierum
Man : Wijbe Hendriks afkomstig van Franeker
Vrouw : Tietje Doedes afkomstig van Sexbierum
Tietje was baptized:
Barradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1764
Dopeling: Tietje
Gedoopt op 25 november 1764 in Sexbierum
Kind van Doede Clases en niet genoemde moeder
In her death record her parents are listed as Doede Johannes and Lijsbeth.
Any help with finding the death date for Wybe Hendriks and his parents names, etc. would be very much appreciated!
mvg, John
van der Schel, Tietje en Wybe Hendriks
-
John Nauta
- Berichten: 114
- Lid geworden op: donderdag 9 feb 2006 6:10 pm
-
Margreet Huisman
- Berichten: 5352
- Lid geworden op: zaterdag 10 dec 2005 1:02 am
Re: van der Schel, Tietje en Wybe Hendriks
Hi John,
searching with schel indeed didn't work - in 1811
so I searched with doedes hendrik*
doede lijsbet - or doede johannes - in the marriages, gave this one:
couldn't find anymore baptismes, nor the first marriage of Lysbert.
But it might be a little complexer.
I doubted whether Tietje Sexbierum was the right one,
this is the couple I guess:
but Ybeltje remarries Arend Gerrits in 1771 Sexbierum.
2 catholic baptismes Harlingen - oa Gerardus = Gerrit
'mother not rk' and named Sibbeltje or Hibbeltje -
and now it is possible Gerrit Schel was named after this Gerardus.
I also found a sister for Wybe - Elizabet bpt. 1752- marries probably as Lijsbet Hendriks Arum x Jakob Willems 1775 -
children Adema, not baptised while babies -
then both sister and brother took a new faith.
In which case it is also possible Lijsbet Schel was named after this sister, who died 1809 according Jacobs acte 1819 below.
- and the witnesses at Tietjes death mixed up her daughters name Lijsbet for a mothers name.
Then Doede Johannes is the wrong one - and Doede Klases is the good one.
but I cannot find them in the mennonite-books either - and they are online amongst the other baptisme-books:
The 'bijlages' may also contain a paper why they aren't baptised,
sometimes the mormons put them online -
but they marry in the wrong years (Hendrik 1813 - Gerrit 1838) - and are not yet here:
http://www.genver.nl/fs/indexfr.htm
Maybe I'll visit the archive later this week,
there also might be a custody.
Greetings,
Margreet
searching with schel indeed didn't work - in 1811
so I searched with doedes hendrik*
strange that Hendrik is missing. Can't find him under his own name either.Arum, deel 1 folio 13
Kerk, Wybe Hendriks kinderen de, Arum (moeder Tutje Doedes) Bauke Eeltjes Kooystra, armvoogd over:
Kinderen:
Doede 17, Gerrit 14, Lijsbeth 11
doede lijsbet - or doede johannes - in the marriages, gave this one:
Sytse is in the citizens-book 1753 - born in Tzummarum,Franeker, huwelijken 1753
Vermelding: Bevestiging huwelijk op 23 januari 1753
Man : Sytse Cornelis afkomstig van Tzummarum
Vrouw : Lysbert Cornelis afkomstig van Franeker
Opmerking : weduwe van Doede Johannes
couldn't find anymore baptismes, nor the first marriage of Lysbert.
But it might be a little complexer.
I doubted whether Tietje Sexbierum was the right one,
this is the couple I guess:
so - why a Lijsbet?Barradeel, huwelijken 1759
Vermelding: Bevestiging huwelijk op 4 juni 1759 in Pietersbierum
Man : Doede Klases afkomstig van Herbayum
Vrouw : Ybeltje Jans afkomstig van Pietersbierum
but Ybeltje remarries Arend Gerrits in 1771 Sexbierum.
2 catholic baptismes Harlingen - oa Gerardus = Gerrit
'mother not rk' and named Sibbeltje or Hibbeltje -
and now it is possible Gerrit Schel was named after this Gerardus.
I also found a sister for Wybe - Elizabet bpt. 1752- marries probably as Lijsbet Hendriks Arum x Jakob Willems 1775 -
children Adema, not baptised while babies -
then both sister and brother took a new faith.
In which case it is also possible Lijsbet Schel was named after this sister, who died 1809 according Jacobs acte 1819 below.
- and the witnesses at Tietjes death mixed up her daughters name Lijsbet for a mothers name.
Then Doede Johannes is the wrong one - and Doede Klases is the good one.
Without baptismes I thought of mennonites,Wonseradeel, dopen, geboortejaar 1785, doopjaar 1811
Dopeling: Zijtze
Geboren op 11 maart 1785 in Arum
Gedoopt op belijdenis op 19 mei 1811 in Arum
Zoon van Jakob Willems en Lijsbert Hendriks
Huwelijksakte Wonseradeel, 1819
Man : Rein Johannes Thomasma, oud 28 jaar, geboren te Birdaard, gemeente Dantumadeel
Ouders: Johannes Thomas en Klaaske Reins
Vrouw : Trijntie Jacobs Adema, oud 43 jaar, geboren te Arum
Ouders: Jacob Willems en Lijsbet Hendriks
Datum : 27 maart 1819, akte nr. 14
Huwelijksakte Wonseradeel, 1819
Man : Jacob Jacobs Adema, oud 25 jaar, geboren te Arum
Ouders: Jacob Willems en Lijsbert Hendriks
Vrouw : Johantje Sytses Kooistra, oud 22 jaar, geboren te Arum
Ouders: Sytse Oeges en Doedje Johannes
Datum : 5 november 1819, akte nr. 72
but I cannot find them in the mennonite-books either - and they are online amongst the other baptisme-books:
Maybe in the members-book in the archive - we found Arumers before in this book.Franeker - Doopsgezinde gemeente
270. Geboorte-, trouw- en lidmatenboek, 1722-1860.
Index huwelijken DTB nr. 271i.
Index geboorten: DTB nr. 271e.
N.B. Geboorten van 1722-1816, huwelijken van 1798-1811 en lidmaten van 1768-1860, met data van 1721 af.
The 'bijlages' may also contain a paper why they aren't baptised,
sometimes the mormons put them online -
but they marry in the wrong years (Hendrik 1813 - Gerrit 1838) - and are not yet here:
http://www.genver.nl/fs/indexfr.htm
Maybe I'll visit the archive later this week,
there also might be a custody.
Greetings,
Margreet
-
John Nauta
- Berichten: 114
- Lid geworden op: donderdag 9 feb 2006 6:10 pm
Re: van der Schel, Tietje en Wybe Hendriks
Hallo Margreet,
As always, thank you for your help! I am sorry that this response comes several days after your response.
You make some interesting points about this family. I hope that my questions can be answered by someone looking at the bijlagens for son Hendrik's marriage in 1817 and maybe it is also in the bijlagens for son Gerrit's marriage in 1838:
Huwelijksakte Franekeradeel, 1838
Man: Gerrit Wybes van der Schel, oud 41 jaar, geboren te Arum, gemeente
Wonseradeel
Ouders: Wybe Hendriks en Tietje Doedes van der Schel
Vrouw : Jantje Gerrits Gerlofsma, oud 24 jaar, geboren te Achlum
Ouders: Gerrit Gerlofs Gerlofsma en Johanna Jans Huisinga
Datum : 19 mei 1838, akte nr. 26
A few reasons why I came to the conclusion that Tietje Doedes van der Schel was the daughter of Doede Clases and Lijsbet:
1) In her death record it states that she was born in Sexbierum not Pietersbierum. Maybe for the registrar or family this was a guess but I don't think so. In the marriage information for Tietje and Wybe it says that Tietje was coming from Sexbierum. I know that "afkomstig" can mean that is where the person was living at the time and maybe was not born there. But then there are the following clues.
2) Her age at death matches the baptism record for the Tietje that I found. When she died on 19 June 1842 her age is recorded as 77. This would match the baptism year for the Tietje I found from Sexbierum: 1842-78=1764 (she would have been 78 in November of 1842 had she lived until then)
3) Her mother's name in the death record is listed as Lijsbeth, also the name of her daughter.
So I think that with those 3 clues it is quite conclusive to assume that the patronym of her father Doede in Tietje's death record was written incorrectly. I realize that not everything is 100% sure but it seems to be the correct conclusion.
Wonderful that you found the family name as taken in 1811-12 as "de Kerk". It confirms that Wybe was dead by then. Obviously it became more advantageous for the children to take the "van der Schel" name for whatever reason.
Your other observations are being surmised on certain speculations that are interesting. You have done a very good job with this but for me it still begins with the bijlagens for sons Hendrik and Gerrit. I hope that someone will look at these and come up with an answer about Wybe. I would love to know if this is our "Wybe Hendriks":
Wonseradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1755
Dopeling: Wijbe
Gedoopt op 19 januari 1755 in Arum
Zoon van Hendrick Wibes en Akke Hettes
Thank you again for all your help and I hope that you or others can help me solve this mystery!
greeting,
John
As always, thank you for your help! I am sorry that this response comes several days after your response.
You make some interesting points about this family. I hope that my questions can be answered by someone looking at the bijlagens for son Hendrik's marriage in 1817 and maybe it is also in the bijlagens for son Gerrit's marriage in 1838:
Huwelijksakte Franekeradeel, 1838
Man: Gerrit Wybes van der Schel, oud 41 jaar, geboren te Arum, gemeente
Wonseradeel
Ouders: Wybe Hendriks en Tietje Doedes van der Schel
Vrouw : Jantje Gerrits Gerlofsma, oud 24 jaar, geboren te Achlum
Ouders: Gerrit Gerlofs Gerlofsma en Johanna Jans Huisinga
Datum : 19 mei 1838, akte nr. 26
A few reasons why I came to the conclusion that Tietje Doedes van der Schel was the daughter of Doede Clases and Lijsbet:
1) In her death record it states that she was born in Sexbierum not Pietersbierum. Maybe for the registrar or family this was a guess but I don't think so. In the marriage information for Tietje and Wybe it says that Tietje was coming from Sexbierum. I know that "afkomstig" can mean that is where the person was living at the time and maybe was not born there. But then there are the following clues.
2) Her age at death matches the baptism record for the Tietje that I found. When she died on 19 June 1842 her age is recorded as 77. This would match the baptism year for the Tietje I found from Sexbierum: 1842-78=1764 (she would have been 78 in November of 1842 had she lived until then)
3) Her mother's name in the death record is listed as Lijsbeth, also the name of her daughter.
So I think that with those 3 clues it is quite conclusive to assume that the patronym of her father Doede in Tietje's death record was written incorrectly. I realize that not everything is 100% sure but it seems to be the correct conclusion.
Wonderful that you found the family name as taken in 1811-12 as "de Kerk". It confirms that Wybe was dead by then. Obviously it became more advantageous for the children to take the "van der Schel" name for whatever reason.
Your other observations are being surmised on certain speculations that are interesting. You have done a very good job with this but for me it still begins with the bijlagens for sons Hendrik and Gerrit. I hope that someone will look at these and come up with an answer about Wybe. I would love to know if this is our "Wybe Hendriks":
Wonseradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1755
Dopeling: Wijbe
Gedoopt op 19 januari 1755 in Arum
Zoon van Hendrick Wibes en Akke Hettes
Thank you again for all your help and I hope that you or others can help me solve this mystery!
greeting,
John
-
Margreet Huisman
- Berichten: 5352
- Lid geworden op: zaterdag 10 dec 2005 1:02 am
Re: van der Schel, Tietje en Wybe Hendriks
Hi John,
1817 akte 14 Hendrik van der Schel.
before 1811 there seldom are death-certificates where parents are mentioned- it's merely a name in the burials-book.
When no registration/proof can be found, one has to bring along them witnesses.
The births from the family-register was new for me.
Greetings Margreet
1817 akte 14 Hendrik van der Schel.
Franekeradeel 1838 akte 26: Gerrit van der Schel.Sible Pieters Bakker, meesterbakker (master baker)
en Symen Pieters Bakker, bode/messenger der grietenij Wonseradeel, both living in Arum
declare they very well know that Wiebe Hendriks, - arbeider/worker when alive, living in Arum, died there in the month july 1801.
He was the father of Hendrik Wiebes van der Schel, boereknegt/farmerhelp, living in Arum.
They have known Wiebe very well, since they lived in the same neighbourhood and met frequently/had a familiar relation.
(ze hebben hem zeer wel gekend, daar zij op dezelfde buurt woonden en gemeenzaam met hem omgegaan zijn).
Ge-extraheerd uit ene aanteekening der geboorte bij de familie van Wiebe Hendriks van der Schel en Tietje Doedes te Arum gevonden (....-onleesbaar woord-...)
Extract from an annotation/note of the birth within the family of .... found ...
"1790 den 25 july is onze zoon Hendrik te Arum geboren" - ... our son was born te Arum.
Signed okay by the grietman/maire.
I did not see a military record.
Wonseradeel 1819 akte 14: Trijntie Jacobs Adema.*Djeure Ytzens de Jong, veldwachter Makkum
*Engele Dirks Baarda, veldwachter Tjerkwerd
Willem Piers Bakker, bode te Bolsward
Frans Tjallings Syswerda, veldwachter te Burgwerd
*Yeb Douwes de Jong, veldwachter te Witmarsum
Obe Putting, winkelier Bolsward
Siemon Pieters Bakker, bode Bolsward
declare that Gerrit Wybes van der Schel, son of Wybe Hendriks who lived and died Arum, adn Tietje Doedes van der Schel, living in Arum
was born september 21th 1796.
They have known and met him since then.
The 3 *witnesses and Arjen Klazes Buwalda, veldwachter te Arum
declare that Gerrits father died for a series of years ago in Arum.
Wonseradeel 1819 akte 72: Jacobs Jacobs AdemaFrom the register of the municipality:
Lijsbet Hendriks ovl Arum 1809, 23th bloemmaand - old 64 yrs , widow, on alimentation.
Extract from the family-register: 23-2-1776 Trinte Jacobs born
Same witnesses as Hendriks: father Jacob Jacobs Adema - died Arum may 3th 1795
They know because of a friendly relationship with him.
It might not be what you hoped for,Much the same as Trinties akte.
Witnesses for fathers dead and Jacobs birth: Jacob Jacobs born december 2th 1793.
They know the exact date because of .... (unreadable reason).
before 1811 there seldom are death-certificates where parents are mentioned- it's merely a name in the burials-book.
When no registration/proof can be found, one has to bring along them witnesses.
The births from the family-register was new for me.
Greetings Margreet
-
Margreet Huisman
- Berichten: 5352
- Lid geworden op: zaterdag 10 dec 2005 1:02 am
Re: van der Schel, Tietje en Wybe Hendriks
2nd reaction after the archive visit:
John, I suddenly found another child!
There is a very interesting Jan Symons Franeker 1737 with Sjoerdje Elles (Elkes Jelles) Sexbierum -
baptised there 1711 dr Elle Hannes x Rinske Sijmons
with lots of Elle-family in Arum and Sexbierum - later Gosliga/Goslinga
- who might be the parents of Ybeltje Jans
but I cannot find them baptising her.
Maybe maybe maybe they didn't baptise before the Elle Jans 1741 Franeker,
he marries there as tichelaarsgesel, Tichelaar /Tigchelaar - cannot find offspring alive after 1811.
Barradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1764
Dopeling: IJbeltie Jans
Gedoopt op belijdenis op 10 februari 1764 in Sexbierum
Dochter van niet genoemde vader en niet genoemde moeder
Opm.: De dopeling is gehuwd
Barradeel, dopen, geboortejaar 1774, doopjaar 1774
Dopeling: Rense
Geboren op 8 april 1774 in Sexbierum
Gedoopt op 1 mei 1774 in Sexbierum
Kind van Ane Gerrijts en IJbeltje Jans
Opm.: De vader was R. K.
might be named after grandmother Rinske???? before and after this one they baptise his names Geertje and Gerardus rk.
Since Tietje is alive and able to give permission at her childrens wedding,
we will not find a document with the grandparents.
Greetings, Margreet
John, I suddenly found another child!
twice named Harmens de Vries at her childrens births.Huwelijksakte Wonseradeel, 1838
Man : Willem Klazes Poortstra, oud 25 jaar, geboren te Kimswerd
Ouders: Klaas Jacobs Poortstra en Aaltje Willems
Vrouw : Sjoerdtje van der Schel, oud 27 jaar, geboren te Arum - known through an Akte van Bekendheid
Ouders: niet genoemde vader en Tietje Doedes van der Schel
Datum : 14 april 1838, akte nr. 7
Overlijdensakte Wonseradeel, 1847
Aangiftedatum 28 januari 1847, blad nr. 7
Sjoerdtje van der Schel, overleden 27 januari 1847, 36 jaar, vrouw
Gehuwd
There is a very interesting Jan Symons Franeker 1737 with Sjoerdje Elles (Elkes Jelles) Sexbierum -
baptised there 1711 dr Elle Hannes x Rinske Sijmons
with lots of Elle-family in Arum and Sexbierum - later Gosliga/Goslinga
- who might be the parents of Ybeltje Jans
but I cannot find them baptising her.
Maybe maybe maybe they didn't baptise before the Elle Jans 1741 Franeker,
he marries there as tichelaarsgesel, Tichelaar /Tigchelaar - cannot find offspring alive after 1811.
Barradeel, dopen, doopjaar 1764
Dopeling: IJbeltie Jans
Gedoopt op belijdenis op 10 februari 1764 in Sexbierum
Dochter van niet genoemde vader en niet genoemde moeder
Opm.: De dopeling is gehuwd
Barradeel, dopen, geboortejaar 1774, doopjaar 1774
Dopeling: Rense
Geboren op 8 april 1774 in Sexbierum
Gedoopt op 1 mei 1774 in Sexbierum
Kind van Ane Gerrijts en IJbeltje Jans
Opm.: De vader was R. K.
might be named after grandmother Rinske???? before and after this one they baptise his names Geertje and Gerardus rk.
Since Tietje is alive and able to give permission at her childrens wedding,
we will not find a document with the grandparents.
Greetings, Margreet